2002 BMW M3: Lighter Wallet

Thank you Edmunds.com for bringing me back to reality. The thought of getting a cheap performance bargain, I admit, was very tempting...especially when I saw how much fun you were having with the car initially. But seeing such high maintenance costs on a "well-maintained" and "impeccable" used BMW has made me face the music once again. I'd much rather lease a BMW, use their free maintenance, and dodge these high prices of admission thank you very much!

How about some R Compound tires? Toyo Proxes RA-1's or Nitto NT-01's work wonders yet still last an acceptable period of time. (100 treadwear)
 
If you need slightly longer wearing tires, look into BFG KD's, ADVAN Neova AD07's, or Bridgestone Potenza RE-01R's.
 
Sticky budget/ SCCA Street Class tires (usually with softer sidewalls than the aforementioned tires) would be Falken Azenis, Kumho MX, Dunlop Direzza Sport Z1.
 
That there is all you should ever need for summer performance tires, unless you want stickier. Those are fun, but really better suited for track use only.

The Ferrari is starting to look like a good deal again.

If you want really good match to your M3, try Continental ContiSportContact3. They are truly outstanding tires.

I bet the Ferrari's bushings are cracked/gone a long time ago that nobody notices the difference anymore. Besides, reliability for the Ferrari is measured by the number of times it had the drivers stranded, not suspension repairs and tire alignment. Even though $1200 are ridiculously too much IMHO for the repairs made. How many working hours did they charge replacing the bushing and doing the alignment?
I hope that the M3 will handle the abuse without further problems.

These are maintenance issues rather than real problems. Rubber bushing can be made very durable but everything in life is a compromise. If they are durable, they have certain inferior characteristics that are unsuitable for this type of car. You want BMW comfort and performance blend -- you have to pay for it. Otherwise you are welcome to buy a Lexus.

If you need to change the tires, why don't you try the Goodyear Eagle F1 Asymmetric which TireRack just rated number 1 in maximum performance tires under their track testing on a BMW 325? I'd love to hear if you come to the same conclusion. So far, I have followed TireRack reccommendations for my 540i and they have been spot on.

Gotta pay to play.
 
Further affirmation that wrenching skills and sports cars go hand in hand.

Michelin Pilot Sport 2 - can't get any stickier than that, except for the Sport Cup version, which is pretty much an R-compound tire.
 
The Corvette ZR1 and the CTS-V will both be wearing these when they come out. I also plan to upgrade to these tires on my '02 Z06 when it comes time to replace the GoodYear Eagle F1 Supercars that are on there now (which are also excellent, but not quite as sticky as the PS2s).

BTW, control arm bushings can be a pain to replace - very time consuming for most cars. Most of your bill was probably for labor.
 
They shouldn't be cracking and failing at only 50k miles though - that's a design flaw.

I'm willing to bet the actual value here was around $500....rear control arm bushings and an alignment? Come on....that's pretty straightforward.
 
Almost all long-term BMW owners find a good BMW shop (non dealer) to work on their cars after the maintenance/warranty period.
 
If you continue to go to the dealer for stuff like this, you will be reflecting the reality of owning a BMW M car from the standpoint of the rich instead of the standpoint of average Joe who owns an M car and operates on a moderate budget.
 
Edmunds: You bought the M3 to reflect the choices of the various person spending around $30k on a car. Please continue to operate in that function during your ownership experience to help show people what it's really like.
 
Scott Oldham might want stickier tires. The average person is probably looking at Michelin PS2s are one of the, currently, best rated sticky tires that can still last a reasonable time and offer a good combination of comfort, noise, performance, and treadlife. Anything more extreme (read: DOT approved R compound tires or the like) is going to go down the road of dreaming instead of a long-term test demonstrating the real-world experiences of ownership for most people.
 
I love that this car is on this blog. I hate that it just cost to $1200 for two things the average owner would've spent much less on.
 
Joe

Edmunds, are you obligated to go to dealerships for servicing your fleet of cars? As I mentioned in the last M3 post, they charged you about 2x more than it would have cost at an indy shop. This gives readers the impression that maintenance is higher than it could be. Yes, M3 maintenance is high but going to the dealer makes it downright absurd. I'm sure there are some very good shops in SoCal to be found.
 
Can you post up the details for the bushing install? How much for parts & labor?

A lot of BMW owners have their cars serviced at BMW dealerships, so I don't think Edmund's choice to have their M3 repaired at a dealer was wrong or unusual. BMW's are not cheap to own - if the labor doesn't get you, the parts costs will. If you're looking for an easy to repair and cheap to maintain car, a used BMW out of warranty is not a good choice (or any German car for that matter).

Stingray -
 
Alot of BMW owners do...but under warranty or maintenance, as you suggested, or for the non-M crowd (i.e. a 325/328, standard stuff).
 
For someone buying a 5-6 year old M-car, it's fairly unlikely to be going to the dealership for anything...unless a good BMW indy shop tells you the dealership is the better bet for computer/other reasons...
 
If, after a year of ownership, Edmunds incurs $5k in costs compared to say $2000 for an "average" owner, how does that benefit people who use Edmunds as research. I understand the desire for add-ons...people understand that tire selection drives price, or aftermarket wheels are a personal option...but people don't necessarily understand that those $3k in "repair costs" could've been $1200-1500 by using basic smart shopping.
 
Joe

i love it when we hear things like performance cars have repair issues when they are "driven hard". Isnt that what a car like the Me designed for? Otherwise, it seems like BMW is giving you are car capable of great things but is unable to do those things on a regular basis without something failing. Shouldn't an M car be able to be driven to its potential without these issues? I guess after 50k miles all bets are off on a BMW anyway so this isnt a big deal.

Hey 1487 -
 
A couple of bushings wearing out on a 6 year old car undergoing significant abuse is not acceptable? The front sway bar bushings on my wife's saturn ion wore out at 40k and 4 years (to the point of metal on metal) under regular (i.e. non high-g) use.
 
I expected them to last longer too...but hey, the M3 went under alot more stress. Further, the M3 bushings are built in a way that provides great reflexiveness but good compliance too to avoid transmission of NVH...
 
Joe

Stingray-
  
While I'm sure you comments are based on extensive personal experience with BMWs -that is you've probably sat in one or two- I've owned BMWs since 1983 and joefrompa comments are dead on; most five to six year old BMWs are much more likely to be taken to a good independent BMW shop. And there are more than a few good BMW dealers that don't attempt to max out your credit card at every visit. I have a 1995 3er that has averaged @$40/month to maintain since I took delivery in 11/95- and that figure includes three sets of Z and W rated rubber(it's also my driving school instructor car). That said, you are so right about parts prices- the last repairs to "get me" were a brake light switch that cost an exorbitant $15 and a cracked LF turn signal assembly that nicked me for $35. Wow... I had to work overtime for a couple of weeks to pay for them.
And if that's not bad enough, there's my wife's 2004 X3- another money pit; this time it was the labor costs that "got me"- the cost of replacing the ATF and transfer case fluid at my local dealer was $208. Guess it's time to take out another HELOC...

Perhaps Scott has a hankering to participate in another Drift Day. :o)
 
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Features/articleId=105313

Having a lighter wallet means having a lighter car, allowing you to take those turns just that much harder. See? BMW is trying to help you out.

joefrompa
 
Guess what, my 93 SL2 didn't even need a front end alignment for 14 years. So now I have just cancelled you out complaining about your Ion. My daughter got run off the road a week ago, bent her wheels, got an alignment but needed no other suspension work. My experience has been that Saturn's suspensions are tough and take a lot of abuse. My experience with Honda's, just the opposite. Also remember this, many a small car is driven far harder than you would expect. I am not surprised at what happened with the M3, you would expect it.
 
The small car thing. Put a teenage driver and that car will go through the depths of you know where. No doubt about it. Most people just put a car in gear and point. They don't drive, try to avoid potholes.

I guess my problem is-- do the Edmunds editors like to get their hands dirty... ever? After some autocrossing in my SRT-4 for the last 5 years, I decided (didn't have to) change out all of the car's bushings with better, harder ones (as well as new Hotchkiss sway bars and such). Four or five hours in my garage and I was through with it. The bushings themselves were about 120 bucks and the enjoyment I had of working on my car was priceless. Obviously my Dodge isn't a BMW, but on simple jobs like this, the idea of going to a dealership doesn't make a ton of sense to me. These are car reviewers and editors, not 22 year olds that have moved across the country from mom and dad for the first time and can't afford the time and lack the space to work on their own car.

Hey Aura,
 
I wasn't complaining about the Ion...or at least, not intending too....just putting out there another car, driven in a much different manner, which had some suspension bushings wear out much faster than expected.
 
After 5 years of ownership of the Ion and 57000 miles, it's needed a new ignition switch (defective part from factory would activate ignition kill when temperatures got around 15 degrees), front sway bar bushings, 2 new sets of tires, and one new set of front pads and rotors (after 37k). Oil changes and tire rotations done by me. It's been, in my eyes, a very reliable car. I just despise it's "bucket-of-bolts-held-together-by-streched-out-silicone-caulk" feeling.
 
That being said, I drove it last night 6 miles and compared it to my 06 Civic SI. It's suspension/tires suppress bumps ALOT more and it's spongy clutch and engine responsiveness lead to a much smoother driving experience than the high-strung, poorly throttle programmed, SI engine.
 
Just saying...different treads for different threads.
 
Joe

AUTHOR: roadburner
DATE: 02/15/2008 08:33:18 AM
EMAIL: baileytaylor@kycourts.net

roadburner - you're full of it. If you're trying to tell me BMW's are cheap to fix and maintain based on your two examples of cheap parts that you bought, think again. It wasn't even a nice try. Look, I have many friends who own old German cars, and for the most part, those cars own their wallets in parts and labor to keep them running. I also have friends in the auto parts business, and German car parts are among the most expensive in the industry. You're in denial and have been sucking on too many BMW fumes if you think otherwise.
 
And BTW, you got robbed for the ATF and transfer case fluid change on your wife's X3. The fluids and filter cost $50. Total time shouldn't have been more than 1 hour labor. If you think $158 an hour labor is cheap, then I've got a great deal for you on a bridge I'm selling. ;)

Stingray -
 
While you are correct that german parts, on the whole, are more expensive, it's not as clear cut as you might think.
 
American parts, on the whole, are cheapest. There's a ton of part sharing, so the parts are generally more mass-made. They also tend to be made in either America, Mexico, etc....so a little bit cheaper on the supply side.
 
Japanese parts can be somewhat expensive...depends on the part and supplier, mixed bag
 
German parts are also a mixed bag. You can find some really expensive parts (stuff like an ECU or major drivetrain components, not normally replaced, are super expensive)....but you can also find brake pads, clutches, and tune-up parts for about average for a performance oriented american or japanese car. (These comments are outside of M-cars).
 
A recent example is the previous generation 5-series...530s and 540s specifically. Right now, owners of 1997-2003 540's recommend that new owners budget around $1500 a year on average to maintain the vehicle. Sounds like a lot, right?
 
Well, they often include new tires, 3 oil changes (at 8 quarts a pop of synthetic), and one or two maintenance or major wear-items in there.
 
(They usually credit 15k a year and buying moderately expensive performance tires)
 
Under that context, to maintain a high performance luxury sedan ranging from 5-11 years old, does that sound unreasonable?
 
I think it sounds somewhat high, but not exorbitantly so.
 
Joe

You also have to consider what elements/chemicals the cars bushings were exposed to AND what type of material they are made from. This is on top of the way the car was driven.
 
I replaced the suspension bushings, control arms, ball joints, tie rods, and a manual steering rack (used to have power steering) on my project car (1995 Civic Ex sedan) about a year ago. But thats expected since the car has nearly 275,XXX miles and has seen more than its fair share of track outings and autoX's. I actually should have done it much sooner as I couldnt believe the difference the new bushings made!
 
I dont think anyone here agreed that BMWs are inexpensive to maintain. Some just stated that there are cheaper ways to repair these cars. Some are capable of doing the repairs themselves, some take it to a indy shop, some go to a dealer.
 
"American parts, on the whole, are cheapest. There's a ton of part sharing, so the parts are generally more mass-made. They also tend to be made in either America, Mexico, etc....so a little bit cheaper on the supply side."
 
Exactly Joe! Good to see someone using logic.

stingray-
 
Wow, another "expert" on BMW running costs. I see that I was dead wrong to assume that you had even sat in a Bimmer... So, I have 25 years of BMW ownership experience while you "know" some guys who own "old German cars" or who are "in the auto parts business". I must say that I underestimated you- I'm truly impressed by the depth of your BMW knowledge and experience... I suppose you think that $40/month is an excessive amount of money to spend on a BMW that sees the track on a regular basis...
It's also good to know that you are an "expert" on servicing an X3. Just for the record, exactly what type of ATF and transfer case fluid does an X3 2.5 use? Wow. I should have consulted with you in the first place!
You know, it never ceases to amaze me that guys like you love to knock BMWs by throwing out wild statements unsupported by any facts or experience. If you don't like BMWs, that's fine with me. But in your case, it's obvious that your claims and your subsequent laughable attempts to substantiate them appear to be motivated by envy and/or sour grapes.

joe
 
Sorry my grumpiness. Must have had something to do with the unexpected weather we had in San Diego. Snow, rain, sleet, wind, hail, temperatures in the 40s near the coast. Where is global warming when you really need it :)
 
In addition, my local Chevy dealer just tried to rip me off for about 500 bucks. Says I needed to change my transmission fluid, needed new brakes, etc. The car only has 81,000 miles, but here's the kicker, the brakes had new pads put on 20,000 miles ago. Of course, I declined everything, but that will be the last time I go to that dealer. Not only that, he has lost any future sales of any future Chevy products.
 
I was just saying it didn't surprise me the BMW had issues. My biggest question at the beginning would be, how to differintiate between normal wear, and the possibility that the previous owner was much more aggressive due to the M3 being an M3? It does sound like repairs are outrageous though.
 
FYI, in the first 5 years of ownership with the SL2, here is what was repaired(under warranty or not) approximately 60,000 miles
 
New battery at 2 years(warranty pro-rated)
Motor mounts replaced under warranty sometime in year 2-3 (probably biggest weakness in car) subsequently have been replaced every 5 years.
New battery at 5 years(warranty pro-rated)
New tires at 40,000 miles, never have gotten more than 40,000 out of a set of the Firestones
New front brake pads at around 45,000 miles(wife is a hard charger, what can I say :)
 
This was with my wife doing most of the driving and she is not known for gentleness in her driving, although I truly love her :)

Brace yourselves, folks. Not all BMW parts are made overseas. Some (not many) Original BMW Parts actually come from North America (U.S. and Mexico) by way of third party manufacturers/suppliers. I can't think of any specific ones off the top of my head though. :(

""I wasn't complaining about the Ion...or at least, not intending too....just putting out there another car, driven in a much different manner, which had some suspension bushings wear out much faster than expected. "
 
this problem may surface on other cheaper cars but my point was I dont see how you can have a high performance car and then justify component failure because the car was driven too hard. That is BS to me unless this M3 was used exclusively on the track. Even if you drive fast and aggressively on the street you are still on the street. On top of that, we dont even have any proof the car was abused by its former owner so perhaps there was no hard driving. The guy probably just drove it to work and to the country club like most BMW owners.

BMW uses the same bushing across the board from the E36 and E36 3-series, M3's, and the Z3 and Z4. They are a soft rubber and need to be replaced every 30-50k miles, so this was expected. They recently updated the design w/ the Z4M coupe so they may last a little longer now. Still, the parts are only around $100/pair and Long Beach BMW charged way too much to install them. Maybe they knew Edmunds.com was paying for it and not an individual, so they felt like they could charge them more.

SubyTrojan-
 
You're correct; the last time I visited BMW Manufacturing in Greer SC they were assembling X5s using body stampings from Budd Corporation's plant in Shelbyville KY. BMW has also used Douglas batteries for their NA-bound cars and I believe that GE has manufactured some lamp assemblies as well as thermoplastic exterior trim.

roadburner - why are you so obnoxious? Your beginning to fit the profile of the stereotypical BMW owner.
 
So you say I don't have facts? I'm not going to waste my time proving facts to you. You can look it up yourself. Go to your favorites online parts store, and look up the cost of replacement parts for a 2002 BMW M3. Then look up the cost of replacement parts for a 2002 Corvette. 9 out of 10 parts will be more expensive for the BMW. Don't believe me? Then look it up yourself.
 
No, I never owned a BMW yet. I did have a 2001 BMW M3 just like Edmund's car (except the metallic blue and grey interior) on order for over 9 months (it was a 12 month wait list at the time), so I do know quite a bit about the car, as I came very close to buying it. I cancelled my order and bought a 2002 Corvette Z06 instead. I changed my mind for a variety of reasons, but one of them was the more I researched the M3, the more I found it to be a maintenance hog, and expensive to maintain. I don't like cars that are garage queens and cost a lot to maintain. Then when the grenading M3 engine syndrome started, I said forget it.
 
I still like the M3 a lot, but I have no regrets with my decision. My Z06 has been a phenomenal car, and has been very cheap to maintain while being virtually problem-free since I bought it 6 years ago.
 
I will own a BMW someday. However, I will make sure I only own it while covered under the factory warranty and free maintenance program. Someone else can pay to fix it when its older - maybe you.

AUTHOR: roadburner
DATE: 02/18/2008 04:29:42 PM
EMAIL: baileytaylor@kycourts.net

Were you gonna say something??