Nissan Altima And Saturn Aura: Canyon Road Cage Match

good post with a lot of description Brent!

Great post. Thanks for the detail on both cars...very interesting and informative.
 
Although, I glanced at the second photo and thought, "Oh man, here comes another Aura steering issue rant..."

Good post, Brent.
But overall, I think the Altima is a better car, IMO.
And btw, Subytrojan, there is no such thing as the G6 GXP, it's the GTP.

Kewl post. Speaking from experience, the Turanza's kind of suck. I'd love to know what advantages Bridgestone thinks they have over comparable tires.
 
I'm continually surprised by all of the positive reviews on the Nissan CVT with the VQ engines. I've haven't met a CVT yet that I liked (including Audi's), I'm dying to try out Nissan's.

That was a great bit of reporting. Well done.
 
The big question. Did the Altima pull away from the XR or vice versa?
In other words, did one of the cars while not performing exactly like a Vette, run away from the other? I am curious, really curious? I especially like to read how a Porsche Boxster is so perfect for canyon carving, but then a Vette with all its imperfections just drives away from the Boxster like it was a dump truck. Or a Porsche, normally whatever is trying to keep up with the Vette. Let us know.
 
The second question, how would the perfect Camry do in the same situation? Would the Altima and XR blow it away, or is it better? Inquiring minds want to know.

bimmer, your thoughts on CVTs echo my own. But the Altima's was a nice surprise as I indicated in my raw notes:
 
"In fact, this CVT is the only one I've driven that doesn't make me think 'Why would I take this over a good automatic?' This unit provides crisp acceleration, and immediate 'downshifts', unlike other CVTs that suck the life out of the engine and just feel like something's slipping when you nail the gas."

Brent/John:
 
Did you guys try driving without the paddles? Just curious to see if you feel any difference would have been made. I know Cadillac really works hard with the CTS on its algorithims and that it actually is better with the automatic transmission. And did you drive the Altima in just drive to see how it reacted? The CVT equipped vehicles I have driven have felt like dogs, no fun at all.

By the way, do you think the XR would be better with better tires. I have not heard many positive things about the Goodyear Eagle LS2.
 
Since it has 18 inch tires, I have been waiting for good replacements in the right size.
 
In addition, last question, who has the best overall ride/handling equation. We know you give the handling to the Altima, what about the overall combination? This is kind of information we have been waiting for.

carfreak, it is "GXP" as far as I know. :o) (HTML used due to link length) The GXP is new for the 2008 model year. You are correct that the earlier G6 performance models were labeled "GTP."
 
You're still the coolest 13 year-old that reads these blogs! Please add me as a friend on CarSpace when you can.

aurakr, I'm not too sure what you mean by "pulling away." And how 'bout those Pads?! :o)
 
All drivers are not of the same skill level and I don't know how close Brent's is to JDP's.
 
For all we know, Brent could be the Michael Schumacher of the Editorial department whereas John could be the Tommi Makkinen (having honed his inclement weather driving skills in New England) of the group.

Suby,

The solution to that is to measure the differences between the car/driver combos. For example, if Brent/Aura runs away from John/Altima while John/Aura barely moves ahead of Brent/Altima, then you know the Aura is the faster car (no offense, John! Really!).

Much of the time we were going about the same pace with a fairly fixed distance between us. I tend to keep a buffer between myself and the car in front when driving in a spirited fashion on a twisty road with some blind curves. We pushed 'em pretty hard but were not going flat out, as this wasn't a closed course, after all.
 
That said, I was struck by how similar the cars felt in terms of performance and both possess more sporting handling capacity than most folks shopping this segment would ever use.
 
As far as driving with the trannies left in "D", they both worked fine, though I was even more impressed with how the Altima's CVT stepped down a ratio (can't really say gear, right?!) or two without the slightest hesitation.

Nice post, I got vicariously woozy from all the canyon-carving.
  
Anyone remember in what other GM applications the Aura's wheel is used? I thought it also appeared in the CTS and the Saab 9-3, or something like that. Personally, I think it's one of GM's nicer units, but do you think it impedes those other cars in a similar way?
  
Interesting to see remarks calling it "too big". Perhaps Saturn was on to something with the original wheel in the ION! :P

See now this is the kind of reporting I was hoping for. Sure sounds like you guys had fun. But you forgot to answer the last questions.
 
How would you rate the overall ride/handling equation for both? In addition, you didn't answer how the two cars fare in competition with the almighty Camry. As I stated before, inquiring minds want to know.
 
PS Will Edmunds be getting a L-T Accord V6 anytime soon?

BTW, as an Aura owner, I'd like to say that the new Altima is the only other car in this class that I'd enthusiastically consider. Nissan finally nailed the segment as far as I'm concerned. (I've been gun-shy about Nissans since the experience with my '89 Maxima: Beautiful car, great engine, but it fell apart like the Bluesmobile by the end of my time with it.)

"The second question, how would the perfect Camry do in the same situation? Would the Altima and XR blow it away, or is it better? Inquiring minds want to know."
  
The Camry would have probably emerged from this comparo with scrapes on its door handles.
  
"Anyone remember in what other GM applications the Aura's wheel is used?"
  
GM's commercial bus line? :-) I recall reading similar criticisms of the STS's tiller diameter - GM actually shrunk it for that car's refresh.
  
"PS Will Edmunds be getting a L-T Accord V6 anytime soon?"
  
They recently got rid of an unloved LT Accord Hybrid. I would imagine the all-new '08 Accord would be a good add to the fleet.

"Suby,
 
The solution to that is to measure the differences between the car/driver combos. For example, if Brent/Aura runs away from John/Altima while John/Aura barely moves ahead of Brent/Altima, then you know the Aura is the faster car (no offense, John! Really!)."
 
7driver, it sounds like you're referring to doing things touge- (pronounced: toe-gay) style! =Þ
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touge
 
From the link above:
 
Racing
 
For touge racing team battling, a race has two stages — an uphill and a downhill battle. One car leads the race during the uphill stage, with the second car leading the downhill. Because most touge races feature narrow tracks, overtaking is extremely difficult and is sometimes impossible. This style of touge racing was popularized by the TV show, Initial D.
 
The lead car wins if the space between the cars increases considerably, while the following car wins if the gap between them stays the same, decreases from start to finish or the following car overtakes the lead car. If any car spins out or crashes, the other one wins the race.
 
Touge races start illegally when one car attempts to overtake another and the car in front will not let the car behind pass and speeds up. Also, in night races, the car behind will flash its headlights and the lead car will then speed up to begin the race.
 
Remember, folks! Brent and John are professional drivers. Do not attempt. :o)

I agree that the placement of the paddles on GM's intermediates isn't placed well. To me the wheels don't seem too big. Maybe its just a case of one-size-doesn't-fit-all ergonomics, or I just haven't spent enough time paying attention to that.
 
Also I would have thought the 200 pound weight disadvantage for the Aura would have been a problem. GM could stand to invest in lightening their cars up to get more efficiency, speed, and sportiness, though the tradeoff would probably be a less settled ride.
 
Finally, I want to disagree about the Aura Redline/Malibu SS suggestion. GM devotees have already expressed dismay at the overuse of top performance trim designations for cars that are less than top-notch performance oriented, and GM has responded by limiting their use. That's why there is an Equinox Sport, not Equinox SS. For the most part the target audience for the Aura and Malibu are the buyers who want a good family-hauler/daily commuter that handle fairly well, but most importantly are composed and refined in their ride. Canyon carving is at best an afterthought on a free weekend.

There are so many different types of "paddle" implementations out there. I don't like ones where you're shifting by pushing anything. My preferred setup is pulling on the left paddle to downshift and pulling on the right paddle to upshift a la Formula 1-style. The feel of the Mitsubishi Outlander's paddles is very nice. :o) I also prefer paddles that rotate with the wheel should you want to change gear mid-corner. Yeah. I'd love to drive a F1 car! For now, I'll settle for my lowly WRX with its conventionally-shifted 5-speed manual tranny.
 
I'm guessing the Aura's rubber advantage helped overcome the weight disadvantage.
 
Limiting their use to slapping the SS badge on vehicles like the SSR?

SubyTrojan
 
Today is a San Diego sports enthusiast dream day. The Pads are playing the Diamondbacks at Petco for 1st and the Chargers are playing their final exhibition(excuse me) pre-season game at the Q.
The weather is typical San Diego perfection(albeit a limit humid in the east county).
 
If the Aztecs could ever get their football team straightened out, it would be as close to heaven as possible. Sorry to everyone else not living in San Diego.
 
Stovt001 is right, GM has stopped putting the SS label on everything and it was about time. I am still waiting for Brent/John's evaluation regarding ride/handling balance. You know the thing that BMW and Honda are known to be perfect for.

I personally like the Aura's wheel . It is too big and the paddles are placed poorly, but it fits the hands well at 3 and 9 -- better than the Altima.
 
As for other vehicles it appears in: the last generation Vue, the Sky, Solstice, possible the G6 and what looks to be the Corvette. There are others I'm sure, but these are just some based on a visual inspection of several models in our Edmunds photo gallery. I'll look at the Aura and Z06 we have in our garage at the moment tomorrow.
 
As for the Camry question, it wasn't involved in the comparison over the same roads, so it seems a little unfair to say how it would do. Judging by its softer nature, though, it doesn't seem likely that it would be able to keep up with the more sporting Aura and Altima. I know in an impromptu comparison of the Altima and Camry hybrids, the Altima ate the Toyota for lunch in the mountains.

I'm saddened by Nissan's decision to fit fat people seats in the Altima.
It's great when the seat's bolsters hold you in place.
Not so much when car makers encourage Americans to be fat. Perhaps Nissan did this to increase Americans' dependence on automobiles, thereby ensuring a large population of automobile dependent, addicted automobile buyers. Soon the average American won't be able to walk more than 100 feet to their parked cars.

Great post - very entertaining and informative. I own an Altima but am very impressed with what I have seen of the Aura.
  
The Altima is definitely under-tired - the narrow 17's do a decent enough job, but wider 18s would be better and should at least be an option. No doubt Nissan is holding something back for the yet-to-come SE-R model.
  
As I was reading your description of the functioning of these automatic transmissions during spirited driving, it occured to me that it is worth mentioning that Nissan offers something that the Aura doesn't - the option of selecting a manual transmission. It is one of the precious few cars in this general size class that does (at least, absent a German nameplate and a correspondingly huge price tag).
  
Jaeger

Nice post indeed but I have to say this the first substantial criticism I have seen of the Aura's steering. IN fact, all of the epsilon cars have gotten decent reviews on steering when using the hydraulic system used on the Aura as well as the V6 G6 and Malibu. I have always been under the impression that the steering is heavy and accurate like a German car- never heard it described as "typical american steering" before. I rented a Dodge charger a month ago and I assure you its steering was nothing like the tight feel of the Aura. I have yet to drive an Aura on the highway so maybe that will be different.
 
The Altima is a sporty family sedan and has a nice size trunk. That said, the option packaging, 17" wheels and too familiar styling make it a non-option for me. The 2007 model is already looking like the last generation to me since I have seen about 100 on the road already.

The steering does feel better than EPS would have, and the efforts are in the right ballpark, but I don't feel the cornering forces building up in the wheel as they should.
 
I, too, had a hard time with the distant shift paddle location. And the steering wheel audio buttons are arrayed on the spoke such that its easier to remove your hand to operate the top ones. The arc of the button array and the range of motion of my thumb increasingly diverge going upwards. Styling won out over ergonomics on this steering wheel.

Hey guys,
 
Nice article. The Altima has always been the "sportier" and, consequently, "harsher" in noise, vibration, and ride quality for this group of cars (Camry, Accord, Altima, Aura, etc.)
 
As such, I expected it to blow away the Aura since it has more power, is driven more towards a sporty demeanor (pun intended), and due to it's lighter weight. But this review impressed me with the Aura. The fact that it can "hang" with the Altima, even with numb steering and heavier weight, speaks really well for it.
 
On a side note to a few people: I believe the Aura weighted the steering but still kept it removed from feedback. So they made it feel more substantial, but the road doesn't come through. It's great when you are benchmarking the camry, but doesn't pass muster when at 10/10ths in a corner.
 
You know, steering wheels are one of the first things I notice when I get into a car. How big they are, how thick they are, the material they are wrapped in, their shape (round, oblong, oval). I thought the Aura was standard for it's class in all of those categories, but I haven't been in the Altima.
 
By the way, a few people mentioned ride/handling balance. I'd be curious as well as to how they compare to each other...but it's not exactly something that needs to be mentioned in a "canyon cage match" :)
 
Whoever said BMW and Honda have the benchmark though is way off...BMW is definitely the benchmark. A ridiculous level of connection to road, comfort, lack of body roll.....
 
Honda does well, but lacks the combination of BMW. The Accord probably provides the best compromise of ride quality and sportiness in the class, but tha'ts in the class :)
 
Joe

"The 2007 model is already looking like the last generation to me since I have seen about 100 on the road already."
 
that's because people like the styling and buy it. I have seem a lot on the road though, and I'm the first of 4 friends that have bought the car. I just love the look, but I and many other people agree that the option packaging is a little ridiculous, though a non-factor for me because I got mine loaded.
 
Jaeger...you really should upgrade your wheels to 18's. I'll even take your 17's off your hands, PM me on nissanclub'
 
aurakr...asking how a camry would do on mountain roads is moot. you know as well as i that it will either be up against a canyon wall or would have rolled off a cliff. the camry has never and will never be an enthusiasts car, it's boring, but it does a great job at being boring
 
joe...i think he meant bmw is best in RWD and honda is best in FWD. though i don't like the ride of honda's, too harsh IMO

Some follow-up answers:
 
"In addition, last question, who has the best overall ride/handling equation?" -> It's difficult to say as John and I were mainly focused on evaluating the handling and "fun to drive" aspect of the cars. Both cars served well as as highway cruisers on our drive to the canyon road.
 
"Did the Altima pull away from the XR or vice versa?" --> We'd need a road course to find out. Again, they are very evenly matched.
 
"how would the perfect Camry do in the same situation? Would the Altima and XR blow it away?" --> Since our long-term Camry is not the SE model (with the sport-tuned suspension), I felt it was best to leave it out of the comparison. I've driven our long-termer on canyon roads. Against the Aura and Altima in this test, it would have been outclassed.
 
--Brent

Great Post!!!

langjie is correct. When I referred to the BMW and Honda it was in the context of BMW is the best RWD and Honda the best FWD.
 
This has been very informative. Thank you guys very much. Keep up all the good work and get the XR to the dealer for the TSB.
 
How does the Altima with the CVT feel in normal, ie not sporty driving?
I keep hearing how this CVT is great, but all I can think of in my mind was how bad the Ford 500 was I drove. I know, not the same car, but it was so wierd.
 
Actually how a Camry would do is not moot. Last I looked, the competition for the Aura was the Altima, Accord and Camry, etc.
 
I agree the Altima, is probably the sportiest of the class. All in all, a great report(blog) and not bad for a 4 year old platform (Aura). I can't wait to see what Epsilon II brings.

i just mean they aren't even in the same class when it comes to spirited driving, well maybe the SE but I'm not sure.
 
but the altima CVT is great. it's really smooth. some of the "problems" i do hear from it, is when driving at 40mph or so and let off on the gas, the engine may slightly rumble because of the super low RPM's. i don't hear about it much now though, i think there was an ECU update for those people

I was surprised at the favorable review of the CVT. In the past the Edmunds editors have not had very many nice things to say about such transmissions. Hmm...
 
I personally like the heavier steering on newer GM cars (definitely improved over the steering in my 1970 Olds). As a fair comparison, my friend let me drive her 2007 Ford Fusion, known to be more fun to drive than the Camry and Accord, and I found the steering in that to be vague and over-light and floaty compared to GM cars. Maybe it is just personal preference. I feel I can be much more accurate and precise with the heavier steering, and I don't have problems with sneeze-steering.

Well, it's like we've said a few times in this blog -- the Altima's CVT is atypical of such trannies as most of them are simply awful. The Altima's unit, however, doesn't suck the life out of the engine nor feel like it has a slipping torque converter, hence our favorable comments.

CVTs are generally not impressive. I was not fond of the one in Nissan's Rogue nor in other brand's vehicles with them. The Five Hundred in particular was pretty disappointing. The Altima's is definitely an exception to the rule. It's excellent and you rarely notice it's doing something different -- which is usually a great sign.

"As a fair comparison, my friend let me drive her 2007 Ford Fusion, known to be more fun to drive than the Camry and Accord, and I found the steering in that to be vague and over-light and floaty compared to GM cars."
 
stovt001, are you referring to what you've heard on the "Fusion Challenge" commercials? In that "challenge," Ford pitted their AWD Fusion against FWD Accords and Camrys. Is that an apples-to-apples comparison? Ford thinks so. You be the judge of that. Why they didn't match up a FWD against FWD Accords and Camrys. I don't know. I guess that would make too much sense.

I very recently drove a 2007 Mercury Milan Premier FWD over about 350-400 miles of a city/highway mix. I found the steering to be generally very good - decently weighted (although noticeably lighter than my BMW), good on-center feel, and it was responsive and direct and even gave a little bit of welcome feedback. It's probably the best steering I've experienced on any recent Ford/Lincoln/Mercury-branded car.

Bimmerjay, I'm glad to hear that the Milan was as nice of a car as it seems.
 
Just for the record, my username is a tribute to a certain '85 DeLorean; but if I were to name it after a FoMoCo product, then it would be "mistermilan". IMO, that car is much more appealing than the Fusion, inside & out.

I based my Fusion vs Camry vs Accord on reports from multiple sources. I too found the AWD vs FWD to be a bit of a mismatch, but who knows what way it swung favor. AWD adds weight, and I don't believe Ford's is geared towards superior dynamics. Anyway I don't know about the new Accord, but from what I've heard from multiple sources the Fusion is generally more fun to drive. Her FWD Fusion was still nice and fun to drive, but it still was just a tad too loose for me.

"The steering does feel better than EPS would have, and the efforts are in the right ballpark, but I don't feel the cornering forces building up in the wheel as they should. "
 
You call that "typical" American car steering? I wouldnt. When I read a comment about a car having American style steering its never a compliment and I just dont see how the Aura's steering could be lumped in with the vague, inaccurate steering of class domestic cars. To me that sounds like you're saying the Aura steers like a Lesabre or something. I dont doubt its not a sports sedan in terms of steering feel, but I would assume its in the top part of the class in terms of steering.
 
"Is that an apples-to-apples comparison? Ford thinks so. You be the judge of that. Why they didn't match up a FWD against FWD Accords and Camrys. I don't know. I guess that would make too much sense."
 
Not really a Ford fan but I do have to step in when I see such whining by Import fanboys who cant conceive of anything American winning anything. Ford can compare the AWD Fusion to the camry/accord if it wants to because the AWD Fusion is available for the same or less money than V6 Accords and Camrys. Its not Ford's problem that those two cars lack AWD and in the real world a buyer could get AWD without paying a price premium. Furthermore if you've read anything about the Fusion you would know it handles better than the Camry regardless of which wheels are being driven. Simple AWD systems like the one on the Fusion dont even have much impact on handling, its simply a traction enhancing AWD system unlike what you will find on the MDX and RL. Give me a break. The people weren't paid and they gave thier impressions and Ford made a commercial out of it. Its not illegal nor is it deceptive. If Honda ran a similar add I dont think you would say "Thats not fair because the Fusion only has 221hp".

and i thought that we could get through a blog without the rudeness of "import fanboy"
 
but i would question on whether or not the people are paid or not to give their impressions on the fusion. any product, whether it's ford, toyota, RONCO rotisserie oven, that has people saying "how great it is" is shady IMO and you have to take them with a grain of salt.

Of the Accord/Camry/Fusion/Altima/Aura comparison....which carves out the corners like Ginsu knives? Especially after you dull it with a lead pipe!

It's amazing how much of an impression the size of a steering wheel can make. I agree, and I too prefer a thick rimmed steering wheel of small diameter. Audi's and BMW's typically have perfectly sized steering wheels (for my taste anyway). Why don't competitors just copy the steering wheel dimensions from those cars and use them across their model lineup? I really enjoy my '02 Z06, but it has a steering wheel so big it looks like it came from a school bus compared to a Z4's steering wheel. I really wish it had a smaller wheel. Does anyone actually prefer a large diameter steering wheel???

No surprise here. The V6 Altima is the closest Nissan (not Infiniti) you can get to a 350Z.
 
Just for those of you waving the flag for the Fusion it should be mentioned that the car is based on the Mazda 6 except it is about 300 lbs fatter, due to extending the wheelbase. Knowing that, it comes as no suprise that it handles so well...purportedly. Surprisingly, the 6 is made in Michigan and the Fusion is made in Mexico. If you want an American car that handles well buy a Mazda 6.
 
Interestingly, in the future, Honda will be adding the option for customers to have their SH-AWD system installed on the Accord. So this whole "well, honda/toyota doesn't even have a camcord with AWD" nonsense can come to an end, and not soon enough.
 
Even in a FWD layout I seriously doubt the Fusion truely compares to the Accord, and an Altima would more than likely outright destroy it. Even the Sonata blows it away in acceleration contests.
 
That "Fusion Challege" was a joke. I really wish we had Top Gear stateside so we can have an objective side-by-side testing of these cars by our own "Stig" on something like the Top Gear test track. Even the though Mazda 6 is a anemic as the Fusion when it comes to power I'd imagine that its lap times would come up 1 to 2 seconds shorter than the Ford.

"but i would question on whether or not the people are paid or not to give their impressions on the fusion. any product, whether it's ford, toyota, RONCO rotisserie oven, that has people saying "how great it is" is shady IMO and you have to take them with a grain of salt."
 
the people are regular people and they are not paid. I have been to one of these types of events sponsored by a manufacturer and C&D and no money was offered and some people werent even aware of who was sponsoring the event until the end. Most people who are devout import lover are pretty ignorant about Detroit's offerings and reactions I heard were similar to what you see in the Fusion ads. Just accept the people liked the Fusion and move on unless you have some substantive reason to believe the Fusion ads were faked. Why do people like you refuse to believe that everyone doesnt have the same tastes?
 
"Even in a FWD layout I seriously doubt the Fusion truely compares to the Accord, and an Altima would more than likely outright destroy it. Even the Sonata blows it away in acceleration contests. "
 
actually you are wrong. C&D compared V6 Fusion to Sonata and Accord and the Fusion was the only car that they felt handled like the Accord and the Fusion beat the Accord in every performance category except acceleration. I think the Accord scored a .79g on the skidpad compared to .83 for the Fusion. The Fusion has been lauded for handling since day one. The Fusion, Altima and Aura are all at least as good as the Accord in handling and probably better.
 
"Interestingly, in the future, Honda will be adding the option for customers to have their SH-AWD system installed on the Accord. "
 
this has been reported by Honda? Never heard this and it sounds very hard to believe that it will happen in the next 5 years or so.
 
"Just for those of you waving the flag for the Fusion it should be mentioned that the car is based on the Mazda 6 except it is about 300 lbs fatter, due to extending the wheelbase. "
 
Not true again, the cars are not too far off in weight, probably not even 150lbs apart.

1487, you are a typical devout domestic moron. like many others, you are unwilling to admit when other products are better than yours even when they clearly are. you clench on to the magazine reviews that give your car favorable reviews and spit on the ones that don't. any shortfalls for your car, you say "price difference" and that's supposed to make up for everything.
 
yeah...this is what you sound like, every other post
 
i never said people don't like the fusion, i'm just saying don't believe everything you hear on tv commercials, of course reading and comprehending are two skill-sets that you just don't have

"1487, you are a typical devout domestic moron. like many others, you are unwilling to admit when other products are better than yours even when they clearly are."
 
incorrect again, but nice try and great work with the mature name calling. I am fully aware of whats on the market and like a wide range of import products (TL, G35, 335i, 6, 3, 9-3, CX-9, etc.). I guarantee you I know far more about Imports than you do domestics as evidenced by your commentary here. I never said I liked the Fusion BTW if you bother to read my comments. I was merely speaking of the car's traits. I believe reviews when they are CONSISTENT across the board. I have not seen ONE review of the Fusion that suggests the car doesnt handle well. Why in the world would I doubt its handling considering that fact? On top of that its NUMBERS support my opinion that the car is agile for this class.
 
"i never said people don't like the fusion, i'm just saying don't believe everything you hear on tv commercials, of course reading and comprehending are two skill-sets that you just don't have"
 
the question is why. You are basically saying the ads are a farce because Ford ran them and its impossible that people could like a Ford better than a Toyota or Honda. Sorry but that isnt a good reason in my book. Have you ever attended such an event? If not I suggest you stop suggesting they are fixed. I can tell you they are not and you can bet that if they were Ford would have endured tons of bad publicity by now. Stop making excuses. Do you have ANY reason at all to doubt that the Fusion can outhandle the Accord other than "its a Ford, it sucks"? Just curious. If you don't you should just give up this losing battle.
 
You seeem to me to be the prototypical import lover who has been raised on the belief that everything from Japan is better and who has no clue about what vehicles, performance or technology is offered by US automakers. As I said on another forum, it seems to me (could be wrong) that one's level of devotion to imports is inversely proportional to one's knowledge of the car industry. You are doing a great job of proving my theory to be correct.

for the record I JUST got an Aura XR and I can tell you off the bat I dont like the shallow map pockets in the front doors and behind the seats, nor do I like the fact that the trunk only pops up by 1/2" when you hit the release button. Its far from perfect based on my few days of ownership.

Congrats on your purchase... Is that your first new car ( I know you mentioned only owning 2 cars ever)? Did you cross-shop or go straight to the Saturn dealer? Just curious.

"great work with the mature name calling"
 
thanks, i'm learning from you and all of your posts
 
"You are basically saying the ads are a farce because Ford ran them and its impossible that people could like a Ford better than a Toyota or Honda"
 
no, i'm saying all ads are farce because no car manufacturer would ever run an ad on tv to say how their cars sucked. did you not read what i said said before? doesn't matter if ford, toyota, or RONCO are running the ads. i also never said it was fixed, but i understand marketing and cropping.
 
like you, i may go on tangents sometimes, and i was just throwing my 2 cents in on what i thought about car advertisements. you want more? the tacoma commercials were absolutely insufferable!!!
 
"You seeem to me to be the prototypical import lover"
that's where i learned my name-calling from
 
"belief that everything from Japan is better"
now that's not true, i only believe a majority of products overseas are better, not specifically from japan. but you know it's true!!!! detroit has been skimping out until recently and they will need some time before they fully recover
 
"You are doing a great job of proving my theory to be correct."
i don't see how i am, you are the one not comprehending what i'm saying

1487- There is a TSB for the trunk lid as well, it is supposed to make it rise a bit more upon "popping" the trunk. The TSB # is 07-08-66-004, but I believe it only applies to Auras built prior to mid-February.

Can't we all just get along?
 
1487, what exactly do you not like about the XR? With the last blog, I will have my dealer look into the trunk opening. If that is correct and can be corrected, what then will Honda and Driver do to complain about the Aura?
 
Langjie, it appears you suffer from what many Americans suffer from. They have been brainwashed into thinking everything not-American is better. I suggest you go travel around the world like I have, you will see that that theory is hogwash. You believe a "majority" of things produced overseas are better. The UN, what an unfortunate waste of resources, just produced a study that said the most productive workers are American. That must burn you up no end. I know it hurt the UN to state it.
 
To end, Sales of GM up in August, Toyota, DOWN. What a glorious day. Practice this, America is good and I am lucky to live here. If you don't believe it, I truly feel sorry for you.

"Langjie, it appears you suffer from what many Americans suffer from. They have been brainwashed into thinking everything not-American is better."
 
30 years of piss poor product dumped on the American public will do that to ya... This is not a new, made up concept.

aurakr you can't think so narrow-mindedly. the US is pretty small compared to the entire world. so if the US only occupies 10% of the entire world, you would think that 90% of products would be better than the US, no? ok, now let's just think about non 3rd world countries, the US is then about 25% of that portion, again, you would think that 75% of the worlds products are better.
 
products in other countries are superior to the US because the US is not a manufacturing country anymore. back in the 60's it was but now US is a country that provides services instead, consulting, banking, engineering.
 
let's face it, the way it works is the US invents something, other companies from other countries buy it and improve upon it. the exceptions are military technology where we don't sell our new designs to other countries, we sell 2-3 generations below what we have now.
 
as for workers, i know US workers are very productive, look at europe, they get 5 weeks of vacation and a lot of the countries get 2 hours off for lunch. who would want a laid back life like that? but i'm not complaining, better than china when you work 80 hours a week to make crap money. US is the happy medium
 
"Practice this, America is good and I am lucky to live here. If you don't believe it, I truly feel sorry for you."
 
glad for GM, but i'll feel luckier to live in America when Bush is no longer president

"Congrats on your purchase... Is that your first new car ( I know you mentioned only owning 2 cars ever)? Did you cross-shop or go straight to the Saturn dealer? Just curious."
 
2nd new car- third car overall. Unfortunately the 335 is out of my price range. Only cars I remotely considered were Altima, 2008 Malibu or Aura. Altima was out due to packaging of options and its ubiquitous presence in Philly.
 
"thanks, i'm learning from you and all of your posts "
 
You are embarrassed to be called an "import fanboy"? I never thought that was in insult- certianly not equal to being called a moron. Arent import owners supposed to be better educated and more cultered than domestic buyers? Just asking.
 
"no, i'm saying all ads are farce because no car manufacturer would ever run an ad on tv to say how their cars sucked. did you not read what i said said before? doesn't matter if ford, toyota, or RONCO are running the ads. i also never said it was fixed, but i understand marketing and cropping. "
 
stop reading more into the ads than necessary. Lets not forget REGULAR PEOPLE not Ford gave the opinions for the ads. What part of that dont you get? You are saying we should disregard these people opinion because Ford displayed those opinions in an ad. Ford was trying to show that the average import lover (pretty much the entire state of CA and some other places) knows nothing about American cars and is totally ingnorant as to how competitive they are today. The ads did a good job of showing that when people actually DRIVE the cars and compare them back to back they find that ToyoHonda isnt as great as they thought. Toyota makes GREAT cars as long as you dont bother cross shopping them with the competition which most people dont.
 
"now that's not true, i only believe a majority of products overseas are better, not specifically from japan. "
 
the quality control methods used by the Japanese came from America after WW2. Japan just adopted them much faster and more willingly than American manufactures. Nowadays things are about even as evidenced by the fact that American brands are doing well in initial quality surveys and GM plants are topping the lists of most efficient in North America. Catch up with the times, this aint the 80s.

willin58,
 
where can I read about this TSB? My trunk lid barely opens when poppsed so perhaps it was made before 2/2007.

1487, that was the least defensive post you've had and i want to say that's great! (no, seriously, much better tone for conversation)
 
as for "import fanboy", i think it is an insult. "import fan" or "import fan person" wouldn't be as much
 
can you really blame the public for not considering the big 3 right now though? trust is something that you need to earn, not just for the sake of giving it. not saying that the cars now aren't good, but then again, look at hyundai. they are making nice cars now but people still perceive it as "cheap". in the 80's, japanese cars were perceived as cheap and those are the cars that are lasting forever.
 
lol, you made my point about how america invents something and other countries go and make it better. but there is something called the "catch up effect" and the US is catching up now

sorry but I do get bored with the whole rehashing the 80s stuff when it comes to the big 3. If people are more interested in history than current products I cant discuss the auto industry with them. I dont know your age but people need to remember that someone in their 20s is too young to have horror stories about Big 3 junk from the 70s or 80s so when you say the "public" has good reason not to trust the Big 3 you are really talking about people over 50 for the most part. The question is this: Have they made changes to give us consumers more viable options? The answer is yes. I am not interested in punishing them for past sins just for the hell of it. If the product is legit I will consider it. Since styling and value are important to me many imports are out of the question right now. Sure we can go back to the familiar arguments about resale value and "superior" quality but I'm not buying a car based on either one, especially when source after source shows that the Big 3's quality is very competitive. I will never understand people who buy a car based on how much it will be worth when you sell it. I find it interesting that more and more people are buying imports and yet increasing numbers of people are upside down on loans. I think the legendary resale value of imports is lulling people into thinking downpayments are unnecessary.

*creeps into the room, ducking his head to avoid flying cutlery*
 
1487: Look at the large VIN plate (on the driver's side door jamb, I believe). Your Saturn's build date will be stamped on it somewhere.

"I will never understand people who buy a car based on how much it will be worth when you sell it. I find it interesting that more and more people are buying imports and yet increasing numbers of people are upside down on loans."
  
Those are two completely separate issues, but bring up interesting points. A truly smart consumer, when purchasing a new car, should have an idea in their mind how long they plan to keep it. If they'll keep it until the wheels fall off, then resale probably wouldn't make much of a diff and long term reliability and repair costs should be more of a priority.
  
Majority of new-car buyers turn their car in 3-5 years, so expected resale should certainly be a consideration. A financially sound purchase takes into account the full true cost of ownership - purchase price, expected maintenance/operating costs, insurance, and resale value. If you purchase Car A for less than the comparable Car B but the Car A retains a significantly lower portion of its resale, you could negate the cost savings from the initial purchase when you turn around to sell it. BMW, for example, commands a significant price premium when you compare like-for-like (and people constantly bitch about it), but in my case when I factored in the all-inclusive maintenance, free BMW Assist and traffic reporting, lower insurance premiums due to low injury rates, and very high resale value, the actual true cost of ownership was less than the others I shopped.
  
TCO example:
  
2007 Malibu LT - purchase price $23,065, TCO after 5 yrs: $45,812
2007 Accord EX - purchase price $23,634, TCO after 5 yrs: $41,261
  
Edmunds' TCO calculator factors in depreciation, financing costs, insurance, taxes/other fees, fuel, maintenance and repairs. Based on this limited variable estimate, the Accord would actually cost the owner almost $4600 less over 5 years of ownership than the Malibu, despite a similar purchase price.
  
Obviously there are many other factors involved in a new car purchase than just the finance aspect, but I think many consumers do actually calculate a rough TCO when considering their purchase.

bimmerjay
 
I thought the latest surveys showed Americans keeping their cars longer. Average age 7 years old.
 
For the TCO, I wouldn't take those numbers at face value. How is Edmunds going to figure finance rate, with incentives changing all the time? Insurance varies from individual to individual and between companies. Way, way too many variables to adjust for. And if one variable is wrong, so is the TCO. Does Edmunds allow for the fact that Honda requires you to change the timing belt? Or is that not figured in because of the five year period? What about average mileage? Most CA drivers put a lot more miles on their cars than in the midwest. Does that mean that now the timing belt change must be added for the Honda. See way, way, way too many variables.

langjie
 
I too will be happy when the Bush administration is gone. But I didn't allow all the inappropriate goings on of the Clinton administration to stop me from buying an American vehicle or being a proud American.
 
Just because we are only a small percentage of the population, doesn't mean the rest of the world does it better. Why do we have the greatest GNP? Maybe it is time to stop hating yourself for being so fortunate to live in this country. What is strange, and what I find so, so sad, is that there are way too many people like langjie who appear to be embarassed to be Americans. We may make mistakes, and we do, but guess what, if it wasn't for us, you would be driving either only German or Japanese vehicles. Only you wouldn't have had a choice about purchasing them.
 
But I digress, here is some more good news for the import fanboys out there. The Toyota FJ Cruiser appears to be suffering from cracked frames, if it actually driven as intended. Oh my, another blow to the mighty. These last few days have been wonderful, I tell you.

aurakr:
  
I agree - you definitely wouldn't want to take the TCO calculator at face value without adjusting for your own unique values. So the variables are unique to each individual, but should be fairly consistent car to car.
  
For example, if your insurance was higher, you'd likely pay more for either car in the comparison. If you drove more miles, both cars would suffer greater depreciation, and both cars would have higher fuel costs. So the comparison is still valid if you scale them for your own situation. The TCO tries to give you the best average possible to compare cars to each other, not your personal situation to another. If the Malibu had a favorable finance rate that knocked $2000 off the total financed + interest, up front it might look like a better deal than the Accord, but TCO would still show a $2600 gap.
  
I haven't read into the detail behind the maintenance costs, Edmunds details the calcs if you care to check 'em out. I know the average mileage they use is 15k/yr. I did however notice that the maintenance costs may follow the maintenance guide.
  
FWIW, I don't care about either the Accord or the Malibu, I just used 2 cars I knew had significantly different depreciation rates based on prior experience to illustrate my point.

"2007 Malibu LT - purchase price $23,065, TCO after 5 yrs: $45,812
2007 Accord EX - purchase price $23,634, TCO after 5 yrs: $41,261
   
Edmunds' TCO calculator factors in depreciation, financing costs, insurance, taxes/other fees, fuel, maintenance and repairs. Based on this limited variable estimate, the Accord would actually cost the owner almost $4600 less over 5 years of ownership than the Malibu, despite a similar purchase price. "
 
I do not by that TCO stuff for a minute. There are way too many factors involved for things to be that simple. How to you anticipate maintenance costs and repair costs? How does financing tilt things in favor of imports when they usually charge higher interest rates through their automaker run finacning arms than the Big 3? I dont get that at all. Same with insurance- how can Edmunds predict insurance rates with any degree of precision? Also, if the Accord is one of the most stolen cars I dont see how insurance premiums would be in its favor vs a Malibu. The primary and ONLY signifcant difference between the Accord and Malibu from a cost perspective is depreciation. The cars have similar EPA mileage ratings and should require little in the way of maintenance for the first 5 years of ownership. I dont see how maintenance costs can even be considered a major factor these days when cars are going 7k+ miles between oil changes. Plus my experience has been that import dealerships (if you chose to use them) charge more for basic maintanence.
 
" If the Malibu had a favorable finance rate that knocked $2000 off the total financed + interest, up front it might look like a better deal than the Accord, but TCO would still show a $2600 gap. "
 
Thats only if you buy the rest of the numbers, which I dont. Other than depreciation what expenses would realistically be drastically different between the two cars?

aurakr, i'm not embarrassed to be an american. i do know about the shortcomings but i don't think there is a country, overall, that is better. sure our president is an idiot, but in no other country do you have the opportunities to go from poor to rich.
 
but if we're talking about products, then collectively, the world does do it better. what is the last cell phone you bought? what brand is your tv? even if you look at the GNP of this country and add up the GNP of every other country it will be more then the US. the US is just a small piece of the globalization that is going on
 
but realize that i'm not saying that every one of america's products are inferior to someplace else. i just mean some products, tv's, dvd players, cell phones, etc.
 
no country can be dominant in everything, it's like the parody in the NFL, that is my real point to all this

langjie:
 
Parody in the NFL, now there is a nasty thought. What think you of Jim Press leaving Toyota? Not only that, but for Chrysler. Think he might know something others might not, or just got tired of the gaijan glass ceiling. There goes Toyota being an American brand.
 
Well the good news, is that this will be the year the Chargers finally win a playoff game. Look out NFL!!!

"Other than depreciation what expenses would realistically be drastically different between the two cars?"
  
Please don't get hung up on the absolute values of the two cars. Yes, this example illustrates where ONE particular variable (depreciation) makes majority of the difference. I am NOT comparing the Accord or Malibu in any other way, the cars themselves have nothing to do with my example. For other cars such as my BMW, the maintenance and insurance did make a big difference in my own personal TCO calculation/validation.
  
Run the numbers with your own insurance, mileage and whatever estimates and decide for yourself. The TCO calculator tries to level the playing field for the "average" consumer - read the assumptions behind each of their variables. In capital planning or comparing return rates on an investment project, this is standard process stuff. If you question their assumptions and think you have better information, then just change them to your own.
  
A note on insurance rates - the theft rate on the Accord (or ANY car) is only a small component of its rate. Actuarial models for car insurance rate setting are mind boggling - theft rates, accident rates (with severity weightings of course), driver demographics, injury and death rates, repair costs, crash test scores like HIC and decel measures, etc, etc and etc.

aurakr:
 
not sure about Jim Press, but i know toyota will have a recession. they are getting too big too fast. besides, many other companies are upping their game.
 
as for the chargers...the key to your statement was "win A playoff game". i'm not sold on norv turner.

langjie
 
I agree, I am not sold on Norv Turner either, as a head coach. But there was just something about Marty that he could not win a playoff game. Weird things just happened. I figure once we win the first, the players will relax and talent will tell.
 
What say you about JGR going to Toyota? I can't wait to see how the fans react to Tony Stewart driving a Toyota. That will be great to watch.

is it official that jgr is going to toyota? i know that it has more than a 50% chance of happening. i think ford/chevy need to get over themselves and not gawk at toyota trying to do nascar. just beat them at it and stop complaining!
 
i think we (pats) will see you in the AFC championships

well it was on Yahoo sports and GMInsideNews. Man are they going nuts, calling Joe Gibbs(mostly) and Tony Stewart(less) traitors.
 
While I understand the benefits for JGR, I am somewhat saddened.
Only because Toyota has not had to pay their dues and earn wins.
 
With the new COT and NASCAR ordering GM, Ford, and Chrysler to help Toyota create a NASCAR engine, it is just ridiculous. They should have just said to Toyota, welcome, but you will get no help.
 
I am curious to see what kind of reception he will get during the race for the chase, stupidest thing ever created, other than PGA playoffs.
 
BTW, I root for the Pats when not cheering for the Chargers.

i liked the chargers (more than indy), but i think that LT whined too much last year. i didn't like big papi for a month stretch because he was whining for awhile.
 
but back to LT, whining after the Pats beat them and how they were doing merriman's lights out dance and was so unclassy. well, the entire dance wasn't classy and if you dish it, you also have to take it. therefore, merriman decided to stop doing it which is all for the better. i don't condone either
 
i love ocho cinco though, all his celebrations are fun
 
but yeah, the chase format is sort of BS because your points don't count for anything. so jeff gordon is going to get screwed because he's consistent (and doesnt have that many wins).

"but if we're talking about products, then collectively, the world does do it better. what is the last cell phone you bought? what brand is your tv? even if you look at the GNP of this country and add up the GNP of every other country it will be more then the US. the US is just a small piece of the globalization that is going on "
 
the fact that lots of items I are made in other countries doesnt prove they have engineering superiority. Many electronics devices are designed here and made over there for labor reasons. US manufacturers cant compete due to health care and labor costs. Do you think everything that is made overseas is designed there?

"Do you think everything that is made overseas is designed there?"
 
no i don't. but do you think that every american product was designed in america? i think that "gm europe" were the ones who designed the saturn aura. "ford australia" is the one that designed the new pontiac g8 or at least had some say in it.
 
i think many electronics are designed in europe and asia. siemens and nokia are european companies and those are pretty big engineering firms i believe.

LT learned from his mistake over the off-season. He later apologized to the Pats and for whining. As much as l like Merriman, I hate his dance. Barry Sanders was the best, score, hand the ball to the referee.
 
You're right that Gordon is going to be screwed. Although he does have 4 wins this year, Johnson is 1st with 5. Tell your bosses to pickup a L-T Tahoe hybrid when they come out. I really, really, really want to test drive one and see how the two-mode works.
 
I think you are right and wrong about the Aura. It is a European design, but everything else is all-American. The chassis is from the Malibu Maxx, just massaged. Just got back from a run from San Diego to Pasadena and back. 285 miles, 27mpg. Not bad for either 85 mph with the air on or as you well know 0 mph on the 91, the 210 etc.